Veganism

You both like Philosophy.

You: Hey. I'm Adam, 24 and from Wisconsin. I like to argue/discuss. Wbu?

Stranger: I do, as well!

You: Cool beans

You: Got a topic or two?

Stranger: Ethics is fun

You: Any practical ethics?

You: What topics?

Stranger: Well, may you pick?

You: I know most about lessening absolute poverty

You: but I usually just teach

You: which I don't feel up to

You: Otherwise, vegetarianism is simple enough to discuss

Stranger: Yeah? What about it?

You: Ok, so let's first start in the health side of it

You: Is it hard to be a healthy vegetarian?

Stranger: It depends your diet restrictions

You: you and me

You: I have no restrictions

You: do you?

Stranger: I have a quite restrictive diet, yes

You: why is that?

Stranger: I'm allergic to nuts and soy

Stranger: So protein seems to be out of the question for me in a vegetarian diet

You: huh

You: I don't eat any nuts really

You: What foods contain soy?

You: besides tofu? (which I also don't eat really)

Stranger: Just tofu, as much as I know

You: ah, so I wouldn't call that quite restrictive

You: ...I should buy some of that stuff

Stranger: How do I obtain protein?

You: beans, lentils, chickpeas

You: vegan milk

Stranger: Allergic to chickpeas

Stranger: What's lentils?

You: legume

You: common as tomato soup

Stranger: I'm allergic to legumes

You: ya, I don't know how you'd fair

You: protein powder probably has some of those ingredients

You: so you probably couldn't take that either

You: besides it not being a complete protein

You: I mean, there are other sources

You: But you'd have to actually look into it

Stranger: So it's different for everybody, how healthy you can be on a vegetarian diet

You: Well, for most it's fine

You: You can be just as healthy as any other diet

You: You can be unhealthy with anything

Stranger: Alright, sure, so what's next?

You: damn

You: Do you have one?

You: I really don't want to explain everything about how to best lessen absolute poverty

Stranger: You said let's start with the health side. What's the other side?

You: Morality

Stranger: Oh. Do you think killing by itself is immoral?

You: I usually argue based on certain animal's living conditions in the US (i.e., suffering, not against slaughter).

You: So no, but technically yes

You: That's the last stage

Stranger: I suppose that's where our fundamental disagreement lie

You: Suffering?

Stranger: I don't find killing immoral

You: I don't either

Stranger: So what do you find immoral?

You: The industry

Stranger: So if the industry was changed you'd have no problem eating meat

You: If the industry changed, so that I would be able to eat meat, I'd be unsustainable

You: Grass fed cows not living short lives

You: That's just unsustainable from what I've read about

You: I can't cite things for you

You: I don't catalog everything I read

Stranger: I'm talking hypothetically

Stranger: Would you eat the meat of a deer that a hunter bagged in the woods?

You: If that's where most of it came from, sure.

You: Gotta keep that deer population healthy

You: They live relatively good lives too

Stranger: Interesting

You: Especially compared to diary cows and chickens

You: Hell, I know some "vegans" from NY who eat beef

You: (from a local farm)

You: Super expensive, but hey, good for them

Stranger: I suppose I just don't care much

You: I didn't either

You: It's just so simple and easy to do

You: Suppose not for you

You: The most peculiar thing, people think I don't like meat

You: I like it, sure, but it doesn't control my life

You: I don't live for eating it

You: if that makes any sense

Stranger: Are you convinced you're alleviating suffering?

Stranger: By doing this?

You: Huh? I don't think I'm alleviating suffering?

You: I'm taking a stand, doing what's right

You: It's also cheaper

You: and, if you think about it in terms of fast food, it's healthier

Stranger: Don't you think it's right because it alleviates suffering?

You: It's about taking a principled stand. Being vegetarian, and then vegan, is a stand against it, and the right thing to do.

You: of course within reason

Stranger: So you're convinced you're doing something right

You: It'd not wrong

You: In terms of changing factory farming, doesn't do much

You: Some argue supply/demand

You: But I believe it's not that simple

You: 0.5% of the US is vegan

You: ~ doesn't really factor into supply/demand

You: Although, meat consumption is decreasing

Stranger: If you don't miss a juicy cheeseburger, all power to you, but killing for taste isn't something I find inherited wrong, either

You: Is there a compassionate way to kill?

Stranger: Sure. Quickly

You: Well ya, since the conditions they're raised in is shitty to begin with

You: But what about good conditions, what

You: ...

You: Is it compassionate to kill a dog after isn't rescued?

You: It's still got half its life to live

You: It's like taking a middle aged man

Stranger: You act like a dog understand it's alive

You: and saying that euthanasia is the right way to go

You: ~ got a perfectly good life in front of em

Stranger: Perfectly good? The dog will be homeless and a stray

You: No no, within the context that they'll have enough food and such

You: Could be any animal

You: Could be a stray cat

You: not a house cat

You: I wouldn't say it's compassionate at all to end their life so early

You: just as a means to an end

Stranger: But the reason shelter dogs are killed is because the alternative is to let them lose as a stray. It's not like the shelter can support them all

You: I didn't mean a dog without an owner

You: Killing shelter dogs is completely fine. They'd suffer otherwise

Stranger: What are you referring to?

You: I wouldn't say it's compassionate at all to end one's life so early

You: I don't believe there is a humane way to kill and farm animal

You: humane - having or showing compassion or benevolence.

You: Basically production animals are put in contexts not optimal for them. Some of them get sick; the majority, though stressed, manage to survive, grow, reproduce, produce milk/eggs, and so on--sometimes despite being sick. The productivity of those who cope outweighs the loss associated with those who cannot.

You: Factory farming is not good.

Stranger: Why aren't you actually trying to change things if you're so adamant about this?

You: I'm not a politician

You: I'd love policy change, sure

Stranger: But you're not even trying?

You: well no, I'm an electrical engineering major

You: not poli sci

Stranger: You seem to regard factory farming like a concentration camp

Stranger: But you're still doing nothing

You: I'm becoming vegan

You: raising awareness in my daily life

You: social change is a lot faster than policy change

Stranger: You're convinced becoming vegan will lessen the suffering behind those walls in any measurable sense?

You: No

You: I've said no to that repeatedly

Stranger: If I truly thought there were concentration camps in my country, I would drive a truck through that fence and let all of those victims free

Stranger: but that's just me

You: Ha

You: That's actually in a movie

You: I've seen one Documentary and one film about animal suffering

You: (after I did my own research)

You: I also work next to a farm...

You: ironic you said that

You: The diary cows actually escaped one weekend

You: They flooded out. One of the milkers obviously forgot to close a gate

You: They started pouring out onto the grass

You: prouncing about

You: I helped them back in.

Stranger: Why?

You: Looked like they needed the help

You: and I was between them and the road

Stranger: You didn't care about the cows?

You: I do. The road is a dangerous place

You: Lots of hills

You: It was dangerous that they got to the road--for both humans and cows

You: ...don't know why the first milker was walking when they started pouring out

Stranger: Alright, well, I suppose I'm just not convinced you truly care, but you wouldn't care about that

You: I recommend watching Fast Food Nation

You: It's not really a documentary

Stranger: I'm fully aware of the conditions in factory farming

You: um...it's more about the slaughter part of it

You: immigrant workers

You: shit in the meat

You: stuff like that

You: fact food industry all tied in

Stranger: Yeah, usually slitting their throats and hanging them upside down

You: It doesn't show that

You: well, maybe there is a quick scene

Stranger: Would you ever eat human meat?

You: no

Stranger: Hm, why not?

You: Isn't that related to the murky origins of AIDS?

Stranger: How so?

You: Well, the origins of AIDS aren't absolutely known

You: I digress.

You: I wouldn't be in a situation where I'd need to eat human flesh

Stranger: Hypothetical

You: Like I'm on an island and people died?

Stranger: Sure

You: Why not?

You: There's still suffering involved in a vegan diet.

You: Gotta eat something though