You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You both like veganism.
You: Hello
Stranger: Hello
You: what's a good movie?
Stranger: I'm a fan of The Thing
Stranger: What about you?
You: Before I Fall
You: I suppose movies about badasses
You: What got you interested in veganism?
Stranger: read some anarchist lit
Stranger: also grew up on a farm
Stranger: and went vegetarian as a kid
You: ah, ok
Stranger: What about you?
You: research into factory farming
You: springing from the Effective Altruism movement
Stranger: Mmm, EA, I assume you are in college?
You: yes
Stranger: everyone I've ever met into EA is a student or recent grad
You: well, it's very new
Stranger: Have you read Sunaura Taylor's Beasts of Burden?
You: I haven't
Stranger: I reccomend it
Stranger: best book on animal rights I've read recently
Stranger: Has some good parts with Singer
Stranger: Who the author had some interactions with
You: So what's different about it?
Stranger: It's really strong interectional work
Stranger: the author is disabled
Stranger: and very involved in disability rights activism
Stranger: And she draws a lot of parallels between the animal rights and disability rights movements
Stranger: And talks about the ways they are interlinked
Stranger: and how disenfranchising animals and reducing them to things and property
Stranger: makes it easier to dehumanize marginalized groups
You: ah, I see
Stranger: Very strong book, I highly recommend it
Stranger: It's got some flaws, but really interesting ideas
Stranger: so you are Singer fan?
You: I suppose
Stranger: I think that's a really common inlet for vegans
Stranger: a ton of vegans I know were really into Singer when they first went vegan
Stranger: some say that way and most get more radical
Stranger: *stay
Stranger: My partner went vegetarian after reading Singer's stuff, so that was his inlet
Stranger: It's a very straightforward argument that requires minimal changes in values
Stranger: You read any Francione?
You: Nope
Stranger: That's probably the biggest figure in veganism aside from Singer, and the biggest distinction vegans draw in themselves
Stranger: The abolitionists (Francione, rights based approach) and the welfarists (Singer and utilitarian approach)
You: Ok, good to know
Stranger: Are you a utilitarian?
You: No
You: Habermas - deontology
Stranger: ah, drat, i was all ready to argue against you
You: We can still do it
You: What type of utilitarianism?
Stranger: Nah, it's fine
Stranger: I just like trying to make vegans not utilitarians
Stranger: and embrace a more rights based approach
You: ...yes, more
You: because utilit still is involved with rights
You: Are you involved in EA?
Stranger: I was very briefly around 5 years ago
Stranger: I mean, I guess I still am to some degree
You: How so?
You: Go to a meetup?
Stranger: because I donate most of my income
Stranger: but I think it's a pretty limiting perspective
Stranger: And an easy out for people who don't want to work towards meaningful change
Stranger: Yeah, i went to 2-3 meetups
You: I mean, EA is just a vehicle
Stranger: I don't actively involve with the community because of the problem I described
You: the EA community?
Stranger: Yeah, go to meetups anymore
Stranger: or really describe myself as an EA
You: you sound like one
You: one who doesn't attend meetups
You: I've been to one.
You: They seemed caught up in thinking they didn't know very much about EA, and that there was so much more to know that they didn't know
Stranger: To me, there were a lot fo people who were really into earning to give
Stranger: Instead of actively cooperating to solve problems at the root
Stranger: The members didn't seem interested in fighting for systemic change
You: Because they want to do the job that they love
You: I want to be an electrical engineer
You: I don't want to work a bunch of direct work
Stranger: I mean, that's a fine job. No one is being harmed by you being an electrical engineer
You: I'm talking about the earning to give
Stranger: I mean people who were actively profiting off of others
Stranger: and justifying it by donating 30% of their income
Stranger: I ran into so much of it
You: Profiting off of what others?
Stranger: really turned me off the community
You: I'm not following how they were profiting
Stranger: Sure, so example, one person I met was a lawyer for Nestle
Stranger: And they their job was basically defending Nestle when they were sued for violating labor laws
Stranger: But they donated a large percent of their income to EA charities
Stranger: Even though their income was from helping a corporation steal from workers
Stranger: There were other less extreme examples, but that was the one that really stood out to me
You: Rather than working for some other company?
You: Were they seasoned?
You: I mean, I'd practically work on a nuke if that meant a good starting job
Stranger: They were around 30
You: Ok
Stranger: so pretty new out of law school, but literally fresh out
You: They could do their job shittily
Stranger: She didn't really seemed bothered by her job
Stranger: it was the job she had been offered that payed the most by far
Stranger: and she justified it by donating some of her income
You: but someone's gotta do it
You: someone would do it anyway
Stranger: Again, this was the most extreme example
You: right
Stranger: yeah that was her argument
You: So what's your counter?
Stranger: Someone else doing something is not an argument to be complicate in something terrible (especially when there might be an opportunity cost to doing something better)
Stranger: The same argument can be used for almost anything terrible
You: I think it's an argument
You: Someone else would just fill the slot
You: That argument can't be made for eating animal products
You: Someone else won't "fill the slot"
You: But for that job, someone will
You: I'm just saying
You: I also don't see what's wrong with her doing that job
Stranger: Yes, but there will never be any change in the system if people are always willing to be complicate in terrible things because that's how it is
Stranger: I don't think it's actually that different than veganism
Stranger: One person going vegan doesn't have any effect on the supply
Stranger: but one person going vegan doesn't happen in a vacuum
You: Ya, but it's not a job to be filled
You: It's a choice
Stranger: And if people use the justification "someone else will do it" large scale change will never happen
You: Ok
You: I see a little bit of what you're saying now
Stranger: That's a lot fo the problem I had with other EA I interacted with
Stranger: They were so fixated on the measurable metrics of their measurable actions
Stranger: Which can be really valuable
Stranger: if you are donating money
You: Yes
Stranger: it's good to use metrics to figure out the where you will have a large impact
Stranger: but if you get hyper focused on it
You: ya, but I don't think they get focused enough
Stranger: You fail to account for the types of change that require group action
You: I think, to do that, more groups would do pro bono work
Stranger: and aren't as easily measurable
You: yes yes
You: I see what you're saying
You: but that's also a point, I think, of EA
You: to be a group
Stranger: They were largely unable to engage with thinking about changing systemic problems that cause so much suffering
Stranger: And instead measured what one person can do with money, and multiplied it out
You: facebook.com/groups/1006887426016674/
You: Well, for one, a few people can't really do systematic change
You: not internationally
Stranger: I need a facebook account to see your link
You: That requires a much bigger movement
You: EA is small
You: It's the "Effective Altruism: System Change" group
Stranger: Ah, got it
You: I think the crux of the issue isn't that most EAs (you encountered) make marginal calculations rather than bigger picture things so much as the movement is just small
You: I sometimes hear about reaching critical mass as a movement
You: but I don't believe that's realistic for EA
You: Like I said, I've been to one meetup. I don't know most EAs
You: as people
Stranger: I've been doing organizing with anarchists instead recently
You: Ya?
You: in the US?
Stranger: Yeah, although one of the groups I work with does a lot of support for Latin American anarchists
You: So what system change do you care about?
Stranger: But I appreciate the systems based approach they have
Stranger: Helping oppressed people organize for food justice, environmental justice, better governmental systems
Stranger: Especially the global poor
You: How for the global poor?
Stranger: Have you read "Debt: the First 5000 years"?
You: No
Stranger: I highly recommend it. Especially if you like history and sociology.
You: Ok
Stranger: It's a really interesting history of debt and money
You: Are you reading something these days?
You: I still wonder what actions I can take though
Stranger: and spends a lot of time explaining how modern systems of national debt work as essentially a modern tribute system
You: for more systematic change
Stranger: A lot of the work I do is around helping groups organize to fight for their own interests
Stranger: You can work with local tenants rights groups, or immigrant groups, you can rescue food and bring it to picket liners
You: In the US?
Stranger: Yup, I do all these things in the US
Stranger: but I live in a major US city
You: Ok, it's still very foggy, but I see a little
Stranger: Organizing around US international politics is another good one
You: Ya lost me there
Stranger: The US is a hugely interventionist country
You: So you're suggesting letter writing to diplomats and whatnot?
Stranger: A lot of progressive change gets violently suppressed by US military action
Stranger: Nah, not really that
You: Then what
Stranger: I don't really want to place myself
Stranger: But there have been parts of the US that have organized around getting comparatively non interventionist people elected to congress
Stranger: There is also just general awareness campaigns
Stranger: which really have to be a collective effort
Stranger: I'm not terribly involved with this
Stranger: but I know people who are
Stranger: All of my work is in the city I am in
You: Honestly, my parents deeply get into the news. One even held local position for a time. But when it comes down to actions I can do, I don't know. Locally, sure, there are some low commitment thing like Habitat for Humanity. Although, locally + globally I think it's better to spread awareness about Give Well and all that jazz
Stranger: I think that's unfortunate and shortsighted, but better than doing nothing
You: I see any play in politics as so extremely small
You: Politics is so large and dynamic
Stranger: They are
You: So when you say "organizing" and spreading awareness
Stranger: But I think you are falling for the trap I was describing
You: I'm lost
Stranger: Mmm, you mean you are lost on the specifics?
You: Yes
You: What specific things can I do
You: I still want to work as an electrical engineer
Stranger: A good place to start is to find a group of people who are already organizing around something important and help them
Stranger: You can, this doesn't need to be your job
You: But that's EA
Stranger: My job is in alternative energy
Stranger: but that's not what most of my organizing is in
You: Right, but besides organizing and spreading awareness about political stuff
You: What's something or an example of something
You: Like a project to work on
Stranger: I have to go in a minute, btw
You: I crave something specific
Stranger: Unfortunately, I think it really depends where you are and what your skills are
Stranger: Something I did after I moved to my town
Stranger: Is helped a neighborhood group in a low income, minority neighborhood, block construction of a high risk pipeline through their neighborhood
Stranger: It relates a little to my work, but mostly I was there to help them defend their own interests
You: But that's not about global poverty
You: that's what I meant
Stranger: I took a lot of shifts overnight, when I wasn't working
Stranger: Ah, I recommend joining a group like black rose
Stranger: that is already involved with self organizing groups of the global poor
Stranger: and seeing what sort of support they need
You: I'm not to crazy about anarchism
You: What's an example of somewhere where that'd be good
Stranger: Well then, another group that is supporting self organized people's abroad
Stranger: I only know anarchist organizations, that's one of the main reason I have been working with anarchists
Stranger: I'm sure there are non anarchist groups too
Stranger: I do need to head out though
Stranger: it was good to talk to you
