The stranger likes Vegan
>Auto: Hi, age and location?
>Stranger: 17 m
>Stranger: Wby
>Stranger: ??
>You: 25
>You: US
>Stranger: F or m?
Connected for 1 minute and 10 seconds.
You have disconnected!
Creating a connection...
Searching for a stranger...
A stranger was connected!
The stranger likes debate
>Stranger: | You have been chosen to take part in a group chat.
>Stranger: | Do note, this is not a place to display your undoubtedly amazing genitalia or anything.
>Stranger: | To enter the chat, say teapot.
>Auto: Hi, age and location?
>Stranger: | To enter the room, you need to say teapot.
Connected for 13 seconds.
You have disconnected! Stranger was blackholed.
Creating a connection...
Searching for a stranger...
A stranger was connected!
The stranger likes Vegan
>Auto: Hi, age and location?
>Stranger: Hey! 16 uk
>You: hi
>Stranger: U?
>You: 25 us
>Stranger: Cool
>Stranger: Are u vegan?
>You: ever hear the word cromulent?
>Stranger: Nah what’s that?
>You: vegetarian, conflicted about going vegan
>You: I think it's a pejorative-like term...
>Stranger: I used to be vegan but I agree it’s morally superior
>Stranger: Why are u conflicted about going vegan?
>You: various reasons
>Stranger: Such as?
>You: like for one, I don't think a little bit of suffering when taking a calf away from a mother is such a big deal:
https://www.facebook.com/rachelle.mailloux/videos/10162216182555192/
>Stranger: I guess even if it’s a small amount of suffering, it’s still unnecessary
>You: Like splitting hairs
>Stranger: Unnecessary suffering is almost always immoral
>Stranger: Splitting hairs?
>You: yes, relatively very small
>You: practically insignificant
>Stranger: But the suffering going on in egg and dairy farms isn’t very small
>You: ok, I'm just talking about local dairy cows in Wisconsin
>Stranger: Check out bite sized vegan’s YouTube channel
>You: I don't need to
>You: I live in Wisconsin
>You: I live close to dairy farms
>You: I've worked next to a diary farm
>Stranger: Do u buy dairy from there?
>You: from where?
>Stranger: Or
>You: I buy it from the supermarket, but I'm thinking of cutting it out
>You: replacing with soy milk
>Stranger: If you don’t know the origins you can’t be sure the cows are treated humanely
>Stranger: And I’d advise against soy milk if you’re a man
>You: You have incomplete information in both regards
>Stranger: How so?
>You: drinking a gallon of soy milk every week isn't significant to change hormone levels
>You: I've researched it
>You: just a common misconception really
>Stranger: Don’t they use soy milk in female hormone therapy?
>You: ...do they? wouldn't show up in the research...cuz that'd be a completely different topic
>Stranger: Huh I’ll look into that I guess
>You: :/
>Stranger: What was wrong with the first part?
>Stranger: Cows being treated immorally
>You: I'm saying that I've seen small local farms in Wisconsin. Plus the largest farm has open doors
>You: I should look into the facility rn, online
>Stranger: Don’t they kill the dairy cows after they can no longer produce milk?
>You: That's another issue
>Stranger: Do you think it’s immoral?
>You: I didn't want to get into death/killing, because it's another issue
>You: But to be blunt, no.
>Stranger: Why though?
>Stranger: I’m curious niw
>Stranger: *now
>You: Why isn't killing an animal for food immoral? Because animals, as long as they're not overly suffering, don't have additional rights like voting, owning land...and freedom from slaughter for food
>You: I don't see anywhere where it's inscribed that it's innately wrong to kill farm animals
>You: Sure, I think most believe it's sad
>You: But just because the majority think something is sad, doesn't mean it's immoral
>You: This is a really good chat btw
>You: Thank you.
>Stranger: Children can’t vote or own land but they still have the right not to be killed or tortured. It’s a matter of causing unnecessary suffering. No one should have to prove they are deserving of basic humanity
>You: again, you're equating suffering/pain with death
>Stranger: And thanks! You have very interesting view points
>You: death does not mean suffering
>You: it's a separate issue
>Stranger: They are both rights though. The right to stay alive and the right not to be tortured
>You: yes, the right to stay alive
>Stranger: Why should they be denied that?
>You: I think that's up to your personal convictions
>You: boils down to belief
>Stranger: Why is suffering a personal conviction but killing isn’t? It’s universally accepted that both are wrong for humans, why should it be any different for animals?
>You: you either believe it's sad enough that you realize you shouldn't eat animal products, or you don't believe that and, unless you're super hypocritical, you only eat good Wisconsin products and shit on the windshield of Cali folks
>You: Because suffering is objectively wrong
>You: Animals and humanity alike share the trait of *understanding* suffering or pain
>You: On the other hand, I don't believe other animals understand death
>You: They surely understand absence...but not the concept of death
>Stranger: Babies, young children and people asleep can’t understand death, is it wrong to kill them?
>You: yes, because they are in the category of human; in the literature this is called species normality
>You: if 99% of the human population was made infertile and mentally disabled
>You: they're still human
>You: they haven't lost their humanity
>You: because they are still a part of the category of human
>You: it takes just one being in the species to reason abstractly
>You: as it stands, no other Earth animals have this capacity
>Stranger: What sets apart a toddler from an animal? They both feel suffering and have low intelligence, so why is it wrong to kill one and not the other? What’s so different about a human child?
>You: again, a toddler is in the category of humanity
>You: species normality
>Stranger: Babies are more incompetent than animals though
>You: just because one is disabled or young doesn't mean they're not human
>You: Classifications are not something rigid but something reasonable. While there are some people who either for a little or longer while – say when they're asleep or in a coma – lack moral agency, in general people possess that capacity, whereas non-people don't.
>You: the same goes with disease
>Stranger: Why do you see humans are higher than animals if they have the same level of intelligence and competence?
>You: I haven't said anything about intelligence
>You: I'm strictly talking about abstract moral reasoning
>You: even if all the humans in the world were struck by a horrible disease where no one was able to reason morally, it still would be wrong for an alien species to come and harvest humans
>You: because we are not defined by the disease
>You: a sick human is still a human
>You: a baby is still a human
>Stranger: A baby can’t reason morality either, even though it’s human. Do you mean it’s potential to become a capable human or because it’s inherently just born in the body of one?
>You: somewhat
>You: but not really
>You: again, species normality
>You: you're looking at each being
>You: I'm generalizing those marginal cases into the whole of humanity
>Stranger: So why are you vegetarian?
>You: in other words, you're looking at individual actors...which some argue is how ethics/morality should be done/evaluated
>You: vegetarian because factory farming is wrong
>You: debeaking, battery cages
>You: broiler chickens
>You: and I'm too much of a cheapo to buy grass fed beef
>You: also
>You: because it saves money to be vegetarian
>You: In the US at least, it's the cheapest diet
>Stranger: Why is it wrong if it’s performed on beings that can’t rationalise abstract concepts?
>You: It's outside of morality at that point
>You: A personal conviction
>You: Either you think it's wrong or you don't
>You: nothing to do with consistency in morality
>You: I think that's reasonable
>Stranger: A personal sense of morality? How do you rationalise that moral stance tho
>You: no
>You: outside of morality
>You: not one's personal morality
>You: a belief
>Stranger: A personal conviction is morality by definition
>Stranger: No?
>Stranger: Idk
>You: personal choice then
>You: conviction - a firmly held belief or opinion.
>Stranger: But why? Choices are always guided by something, it’s not logic so it must be moral opinion
>You: boils down to either *believing* it's wrong to kill all beings or not--irrespective of morality
>You: It's either or
>You: But why? you say
>Stranger: Where does the belief come from? “
>You: But I say: but why not?
>Stranger: Like “I believe this because
>You: I think most people believe it's wrong because they feel sorry
>Stranger: Sorry I keep hitting the send button
>You: they think it's sad
>You: So they base their opinion off emotion
>You: But that's outside of morality still
>You: Feeling that something is "wrong" vs something morally/ethically being wrong.
>Stranger: Isn’t that what morality is? It’s mostly emotional, like murder is wrong because you can feel what the other is feeling so it’s wrong. That’s why people don’t kill.
>You: Side note, people who say that meat tastes good--and that they can't stop eating meat are pussies
>You: If you're a theist, that's what morality can be, sure.
>You: Would have to be commanded by a deity tho
>You: I'm not a theist.
>Stranger: Me too, isn’t that the atheist viewpoint?
>You: I don't think we need to bring religion into it
>You: Can keep it agnostic
>Stranger: Empathy is putting yourself in someone else’s shoes to further the human race
>Stranger: That’s why we have morality
>Stranger: And that morality can extend to non human beings now that we have the ability to empathise
>Stranger: Idk
>You: You're talking about the right to life tho
>You: I don't think all rights extend to other animals
>You: I draw the line before death/killing
>You: After that, I think it's a matter of personal opinion
>You: Which somewhat irks me to say
>Stranger: i guess I kinda see what u mean now...
>You: well there is a counter to it
>You: I just don't understand it
>You: I mean, in the literature
>You: There are probably more counters we haven't thought of
>Stranger: Humans are everyone’s priority as morality exists to further the human race, but deferent people have different cut off points as to what extent they feel empathy for non human beings?
>You: I mean the cut off point is beyond objectivity
>You: Objectively, pain/suffering is indisputable
>Stranger: Even suffering for animals?
>You: It's very real. People who deny animals feel pain do not have a rational position
>You: However, as I keep saying, death or the ending of a species who cannot participate in the moral area...subjective
>Stranger: Why should people care if animals suffer? Human empathy was evolved for the human race solely
>You: Pain/suffering is innately wrong
>You: I could care less what other people think they should care about
>You: *couldn't care less
>You: Well, in respect to this convo
>Stranger: Nothing is innately wrong... why is animal suffering wrong?
>Stranger: Arn’t we hard wired to seek our species best interests
>You: Whenever someone wants to talk about animals...I'm cognoscente about building bridges...which information to open them up about farm animal suffering
>You: No no, suffering IS innately wrong or "bad"
>You: I've already explained this
>You: Suppose I didn't do a good job
>You: Animals and humans avoid pain/suffering
>You: This can be observed
>You: We have pain receptors and such
>You: Death, on the other hand, is not so simple--it's not an objective fact.
>You: I don't think animals understand death.
>Stranger: Self preservation in animals can be observed too
>You: Sure
>You: Still different from death
>Stranger: They might not think about death but they try to avoid it
>Stranger: I don’t understand how it’s different from suffering...
>You: Paramount in importance is the extreme unlikelihood that they can understand the concepts of life and death in themselves rather than the pains and pleasure associated with life or death . To the animal mind, in a real sense there is only quality of life, that is whether its experiential content is pleasant or unpleasant in all of the modes it is capable of, for example whether they are bored or stimulated, fearful or not fearful, lonely or enjoying companionship, in pain or not, hungry or not, or thirsty or not. We have no reason to believe that, lacking linguistic tools, an animal animal can grasp the notion of extended life, let alone choose to trade current suffering for it. Obviously, they can value things that entail being alive, such as catching prey, without knowing the concept of life, or valuing life per se.
>Stranger: Huh I’ll have to think on that...
>Stranger: I gtg now, I have class in 5 minutes
>Stranger: Thanks for the convo! 😄
------------------------------------------------------------------
The stranger likes vegan
Auto: Hello
Stranger: hi :)
Stranger: are you vegan? or trying to debate people on here
You: neither
Stranger: oh
You: vegetarian
Stranger: then why
Stranger: oH
You: interested in veganism
Stranger: okay, ive been vegan for five years. may i ask why youre hesitant to stop consuming eggs and dairy?
You: um, I thought you didn't want to debate?
You: and side note
You: last guy matched on the debate tag and vegan tag with me
Stranger: no i dont want to debate, just want to help!
You: ok
You: anyway, this guy was a character
You: he tried arguing from flatulence!
Stranger: oh jesus
Stranger: some people are so ignorant! theyll say anything to justify their views
Stranger: theyre running out of reasons ahahah
You: right
You: I'll argue depending on my disposition
You: but usually if they're arguing inane things like that...
You: well I usually argue every time, but that was just too funny
Stranger: one person tried to argue that if "aliens came to earth and ate us because they were superior id have no problem with that"
You: but that is a valid argument
You: I don't get what you're saying
You: a true vegan would be against that
You: why did they try to assume your position was the opposite?
Stranger: the reason i am vegan is because i do noT believe animals are superior, and that we are all equal. this person believed humans were superior and therefore were justified in killing and eating animals
You: well, I don't get either of those positions
You: we're all different
You: even among humans
You: and animals should definitely not be granted certain rights
Stranger: why are you vegetarian may i ask? - all sentient beings who can feel pain deserve to live.
You: I'm against factory farming
Stranger: even life? the most basic right?
You: I'm against suffering, not slaughter
You: I don't think death is wrong or "bad"
Stranger: isnt slaughter suffering? killing those who want to live?
You: no
Stranger: why ?
You: suffering involves some form of pain
Stranger: getting your throat slit is pain
You: death not necessarily
Stranger: even if it is only for mere minutes
You: let's talk specifically
You: what animals is that a standard practice for?
You: for cows, I think it's a bolt gun
You: done in milliseconds
You: I don't know though
You: haven't researched it that far
You: cuz I'm moving towards veganism regardless
Stranger: okay, so in most farms, for quick and efficient slaughter they will slit their throats as they are still alive and hanging upside down on their way to processing
Stranger: this is for beef
You: well, I should say plant-based
You: to be politically correct
Stranger: if they are kicking and screaming they will stab them in the back of the neck so that they will still feel pain however will be paralysed
You: I've heard both tho
Stranger: there are no laws stating that farms have to release their slaughter methods, most farms state what they think people want to hear
You: some say that they're mostly killed by a bolt gun and that only a few killing floors do the throat slitting method
You: I really don't know tho
You: Have you seen Fast Food Nation?
Stranger: so does this bolt gun method justify killing them? if i killed a dog, however with a bolt gun would that be okay?
Stranger: i havenot
You: yes
You: mere milliseconds
Stranger: but they wanted to live
Stranger: so the method of death
Stranger: justifies their will to survive?
You: anyway, in the movie if I remember correctly, the killing floor displayed the throat slitting method
You: merely wanting to survive...that's about survival
You: I don't equate survival with the abstract idea of "death"
You: humanity understands death
You: other animals understand absence
You: not necessarily death itself
You: ok, but either way
You: let's say in the future
You: all animals are painlessly killed
You: also assuming they have long and happy lives
You: (which I don't think they do today)
You: then it would be OK to kill them?
You: I don't see anything immoral about that.
Stranger: absolutely not. they waNT to live. why should we decide whether or not they can?
Stranger: we do not need to kill them, it is not a necessity
Stranger: so why are we?
You: they want to survive
You: they have no concept of death
Stranger: one and the same
You: I disagree
Stranger: surviving and death are literally opposites
Stranger: okay so let me rephrase, they waNT to survive. why should we decide whether they can?
You: It's not immoral for species who can't do abstract moral reasoning, who isn't participating in the moral area, to be free from being killed to be eaten.
You: Morality ends with suffering
You: Suffering/pain is objectively bad
Stranger: oh for fucks sake i dont even know if youre vegetarian. all animals deserve to live. whether they have a moral agency or not. we do not have the right to take their life away from them.
Connected for 17 minutes and 31 seconds.
The stranger has disconnected!
----------------------------------
The stranger likes debate
Auto: I'm Adam. I try to have my shit together. I was born in the 90s. I care ab
Stranger: Huh
Stranger: Okay, Adam.
You: drafting my bio
You: what's up?
Stranger: Nothing bro
Stranger: Just pissing 6 feet up in the air and trying to catch the downstream with my mouth bro
You: are you in a grave?
You: corpse pee play?
Stranger: Lol.
Stranger: No, actually, I'm lying on my back in the process.
You: k
Stranger: Yeah.
You: do you have a topic you like to debate?
Stranger: Oh
You: I should say issue/question
Stranger: Not really.
Stranger: Can't think of any topic that particularly interests me ATM.
You: sucks to suck ;)
Stranger: :(
You: wanna see the first part of the bio?
Stranger: Sure.
You: vegan,debate
I'm Adam. I try to have my shit together. I was born in the 90s. I most care about ameliorating extreme/absolute poverty (E2G). I've been vegetarian for years, and working towards a plant-based diet. A vegetarian diet is the cheapest, so it goes and-in-hand with E2G. I'll become ovo vegetarian (vegan who eats Amish eggs)
Stranger: Oh.
Stranger: So you're a vegan.
Stranger: Nice.
You: no
Stranger: Wait.
Stranger: A vegetarian.
You: ya
You: ovo veg. eat eggs
You: and fuck if I care about honey
Stranger: For how long have you been a vegetarian?
You: 3 years
Stranger: Why though?
Stranger: Because a vegetarian diet is cheap? As you mentioned in your bio.
You: I'm against factory farming
You: stand against it
Stranger: Oh.
Stranger: Well, when you walk up to that plant knowing you want to eat it what does the plant do? Nothing. Why? Because it can't protect itself and has no means of escape.
You: Huh?
You: A plant doesn't have sentience
Stranger: You eat all these plants thinking that it's ok because you're not taking a life. Well you are, it's just this one is defenceless.
You: Regardless
You: Eating meat requires much more plants to feed the animal
You: than eating the plants directly
You: Veganism is about minimization of impact, not self-suicide
You: There are field mice and birds that die by the combines
Stranger: And it's okay to eat animals. It's nature.
You: Anything natural is good?
Stranger: Other animals hunt other animals in the wild all the time.
You: Then rape is natural
You: Walking about nude is natural
Stranger: Animals are basically just dumb walking clumps of meat fumbling around.
Stranger: But
You: But no
You: Idiotic arguments you're putting forth
You: I should say, easy arguments
Stranger: Rape is legislated in law for obvious reasons.
You: Litigation against certain farming practices for obvious reasons
You: We're slow here in the US
You: behind
You: Other nations have banned certain inhumane practices
You: So again, just a reminder...you don't know what you're talking about ;)
You: Bam. Debate won. You've been razed ;D ;)
Stranger: Wait. What just happened.
You: Forget the word for it
You: But it means the debate was done before it really started
Stranger: So you're a vegetarian because you think factory farming is inhumane?
You: in this case, your arguments collapsed because of incomplete information
Stranger: And because
Stranger: Living as a vegetarian is cheaper than living as a meat-eater.
You: compassionate and benevolent...
You: (definition of humane)
You: no, I don't think it's humane to inject semen into another sentient being; take away their young, and repeat this every year--whilst they go from cement block to milking room, usually, three times a day
You: never go outside
You: never do anything different
You: point A to point B
You: then point B to point A
You: and that's just dairy cows
You: chickens are worse off
You: their conditions are like actual hell
You: and the atrocious practices:
You: debeaking
You: battery cages
Stranger: I’ve seen arguments that eating meat and not eating meat help and hurt the environment, and all of them seem to have both strengths and weaknesses. Frankly, I think there are much bigger threats to the environment out there than whether or not I want meatballs tonight.
Stranger: Oh.
You: I said nothing about eating/not meat
Stranger: There are some absolutely brutal slaughterhouses out there
You: All I've described is suffering
You: Maybe
Stranger: and I’d be happy to sign a petition for more humane slaughtering practices, but in the end, I see animals as lower lifeforms.
You: I could care less tho
Stranger: I think puppies are adorable though
You: *couldn't
You: there is no such thing as humane slaughter
You: it's not compassionate or benevolent
You: just an incorrect usage of humane
You: like asking if jerking off is humane
You: it's not compassionate or benevolent
You: can jacking off be compassionate or benevolent?
You: sure
You: innately tho?
You: no
Stranger: Jerking off is natural though -- and it's full of fun!
You: lol, I was just going to make rice and beans...when I forgot I already have leftovers of those two things separate
Stranger: Oof
You: exactly, has nothing to do with humane
You: well, unless you're trying to say that animal farming can be done that eliminates/or significantly minimizes suffering
You: which I believe can be done
Stranger: I know. But it doesn't matter, lol
You: still irrelevant to contemporary mass farming tho
You: the practices and their whole lives are what matters more
You: than a few moments before death
You: or the fact that they are killed
You: If it's not clear: I'm against suffering, not slaughter
You: I don't equate suffering and killing
You: So the way to stand against animal suffering is to become vegetarian
You: well, that's a way to stand against it without being monetarily involved really
Stranger: I get your point.
Stranger: But we are animals. 1.5 million years ago our animals were actively finding animals to slaughter and ear. Look at it this way; What is the difference between a human and an urchin under the eyes of nature? Nothing.
Stranger: Why deny the urchins kelp? Only simply because the poor kelp will die.
You: no
You: there is a diffence
You: we can reason morally
You: abstract moral reasoning
You: other animals cannot
Stranger: Nature is derived from instinct, free from contemplation. You are emotionally inclined to this.
You: there is not something innately immoral about death
You: with that, it is not wrong to cause death to a non-moral animal
You: (message taking some time to send)
Stranger: Aight
You: some say it's sad
You: but that has nothing to do with actual morality
You: that's more about character or morals
Stranger: Lol, Idek why I'm arguing about this. Not like it's going to do any good to me.
Stranger: I'm just bored ig
Stranger: anyways
Stranger: This has been a great learning expirience
You: lol
You: you fuck
You: Ask Yourself and some political dude
You: they debated this
Stranger: I think, If someone’s a fanatic, an extreme ethical vegetarian/vegan, let them be. Because they're not doing any harm to the environment--only good.
You: or at least they tried
You: oh ya
You: I advocate veganism
You: very few people care enough to go this far into it
You: yet again, even fewer care enough to do anything about it in their own life
You: like you I presume?
Stranger: Yeah, lol
You: ya, so go blo yourself ;)
You: you lazy pussy ;)
Stranger: You're right actually. We have a moral obligation to care for those who are weaker and more vulnerable than us--and we should ensure that they are not profited from. I'm officially a vegetarian from now onwards.
Stranger: Thanks for making me realize this.
You: should strive for ovo vegetarian tho
You: plus honey
You: cuz, we aren't really exploiting honey bees
You: bees aren't really "victims"
Stranger: Then
Stranger: w8
Stranger: Why is eating honey not vegan then?
You: animal product
You: kinda too technical
You: like being against rape and abstaining from any sexual act
Stranger: Oh
Stranger: Aight
Stranger: Anyways I've to wake up early tomorrow to go to my "9 to 5" college, where I work under fluorescent lighting--which is known to cause depression, fatigue, suicidal tendencies and mania.
You: adios
You: oh ya
Stranger: How old are you btw?
Stranger: Godspeed
You: what's your name
You: 25
Stranger: My name sounds like the name of a criminal.
Stranger: I'm 18.
You: Donald?
Stranger: LOL
You: lol
Stranger: No, actually
Stranger: It's Junaid.
You: Doesn't sound criminal, sounds new
You: anyway
You: I gotta go too
Stranger: Oka
You: Ask Yourself is a discords about vegan/debate/logic
You: google em if you're interested
Stranger: Oh
Stranger: Aight
You: a mod kicked me out for not talking lol
Stranger: Lmao
Stranger: I'm quite active on discord--but it's mostly filled with memers.
Stranger: Ask Yourself.
Stranger: Aight
You: God Speed to you too. Don't take any shit Miss Mia
Stranger: Ngl for most of the part, I'm bolstering prejudice on there myself
You: or whatever her username is
Stranger: Aight
Stranger: GoodBye
