Vegan argument: logical or emotional

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!

You both like Vegan.

You: Hey. I'm Adam from Wisconsin. I'd like to argue/discuss. Your thoughts?

Stranger: hey

Stranger: sure

You: ok

You: Are you vegan?

Stranger: yes

You: cool

Stranger: are you?

You: not yet

You: Do any activism?

Stranger: alright

Stranger: not really

Stranger: ofc i try to spread the ideas through friends and family but nothing more

You: anything take hold?

Stranger: I got 2 friends and my mother and sister to go vegetarian

Stranger: no fully vegan success yet, but its better than nothing

You: how?

You: was it different for each person?

Stranger: yes for sure

Stranger: with some people you want to make an argument from logic and data

Stranger: with others you want to use their emotions

You: interesting

You: I knew that

You: but at the same time

You: didn't know that

Stranger: most of the time the split is between men/women

You: ahhh

Stranger: for example

Stranger: first off its important to never bring it up yourself

Stranger: since nobody likes that :p

Stranger: and they will think you are pretentious

Stranger: making an argument while looking down at people will never do you any good

You: ok

You: I don't think I do that

Stranger: you have to relate to them

Stranger: yeah its hard

Stranger: i forgot it sometimes too

Stranger: listen to them, and make it clear that you understand their feelings

You: right

Stranger: all this is pretty much for every conversation, not just veganism ofc

Stranger: unless its a debate, than throw all of this out of the window :p

You: right

You: so what questions do you ask them?

Stranger: well if they notice that you eat something different or for some reason you bring it up

Stranger: they will ask why

Stranger: most of the time i say something like: because it doesn't change much for me and it makes a lot of difference for the animals

Stranger: something short like that

Stranger: then most people will just say: nice, i wouldn't be able to do it. And the conversation stops there

Stranger: only a small amount of people will try to argue otherwise

You: hmm

You: ok

Stranger: questions I ask are:

Stranger: what do you think about fur?

Stranger: we can make it a dialogue if you want? you can answer the question

You: oh, ya

You: that'd be good

You: um, I don't think about fur

You: don't see any use when we have synthetic materials that duplicate the look

You: reminds me of a new years eve broadcast

You: some reporter women we imploring the public not to send her hate emails because it's not real fur

Stranger: haha

You: reminds me of Ed Winters on a news broadcast too

Stranger: yeah people get really mad at people wearing fur

Stranger: are you opposed to fur?

You: I wouldn't know if it was fake or real

You: so I really don't have a position

You: I wear clothing for what it does for me

You: not how it looks

Stranger: ok, so I tested it out, and it seems that this is not a path we can go down

Stranger: you have to look for something to grab on

You: hmm, I see

Stranger: what do you think about people shooting lions in Africa?

Stranger: like the dentist

You: Aren't those poachers?

Stranger: no you can legally trophy hunt there on big exotic animals

Stranger: if you pay a lot of money

You: um, I'm thinking right now on the reason I gave up fishing

You: Should I revert back to my old self?

Stranger: why did you gave it up?

You: synergy of two reasons

You: for one, it's my pleasure at the cost of another's expense

You: and two, it was a lot of waiting around

You: I would rather do other sport activities like archery

Stranger: I see

Stranger: so you didnt like that these fish had to suffer for your hobby when you could have done something else?

You: Before I just didn't think upon how they experience pain

Stranger: sure thats pretty normal i think. Fish cant express pain like mammals can

Stranger: when we see a dog suffering it breaks our heart.

Stranger: even though a fish could be suffering as much, it isnt as obvious to us

You: would you like to be my younger self?

Stranger: Im pretty content with my life and youth :p

You: I mean

Stranger: but I understand your question

You: not what I meant

You: would you like me to be my younger self

Stranger: oh like that

Stranger: i think everybody needs to figure out their life and thoughts by themselves

Stranger: you have reached this point in your thoughts

You: I mean for the sake of this argument

Stranger: you havent explained how your thoughts differ now from back then

You: I can revert back

You: so for prize game hunting..

You: If the animal doesn't suffer

You: sure, it's fine

Stranger: Im not sure that I understand your position here.

You: game hunting is fine if the animal does not suffer

Stranger: aah ok

You: I'm going back, beyond the fishing

Stranger: alright

Stranger: so its fine as long as they dont suffer from it?

You: yes

Stranger: because you dont find personal pleasure to be more important than their suffering?

You: like I said, they're not suffering

You: a straight bullet to a vital organ is very quick

You: they're in the wild

Stranger: aah you mean like that

Stranger: if a human dies without suffering is that fine?

You: depends

You: genocide is not a good option

You: euthanasia tho, sure

Stranger: also for sport?

You: that wouldn't be possible

You: we would realize it

You: so an immense amount of emotional suffering would occur

Stranger: lets say that just like the animal you could shoot it straight through the heart without them even predicting it

You: humans and animals aren't equal

Stranger: ok what is the difference that makes the situation not apply to humans?

You: thinking

Stranger: sure thats fine

Stranger: you dont have to come up with the perfect argument, we can go through your thoughts together

You: Do you know what speciesism is?

Stranger: yes

You: ya, me too

You: So, humans have certain unalienable rights

You: animals do not have equal rights

Stranger: ok, im going to explain some stuff here

Stranger: when you go down the logical route, which im doing here

Stranger: when the other person has though about it before

Stranger: you get to this point almost every time

Stranger: this is a tricky point, because you need to get into metaphilosophy

You: not really

Stranger: so i would ask

You: it's just ethics

You: I didn't want to get into moral patienthood

Stranger: where do these rights come from

You: because very few know about that

You: ok

You: We get these rights from being a part of society

You: We would not have them if we were wild animals

You: i.e., full anarchy

Stranger: you will need to be more precise than that

Stranger: are you arguing from contract theory?

You: basically, yes

You: in a very rudimentary way

Stranger: do people who cant reciprocate this contract also get the right?

Stranger: rights

You: yes

You: they're still a part of society somehow

Stranger: people who are totally separated from the society do they get these rights?

You: ah, hunting some remote isolated person in a tribe somewhere

Stranger: sure

Stranger: or some people who were raised by the wolf :p

Stranger: please keep the conversation going

You: hold on

Stranger: you can bounce off some ideas or something

You: ok, I was playing this chess game

You: and it was timed

You: anyway

You: ok ok

Stranger: cmon man, im not here to entertain you. I want to have a conversation

You: It seems like a very contrived scenario

You: I'd characterize that as cherry picked (old self = stubborn hard ass)

Stranger: I wouldnt,

Stranger: that is my problem with the social-contract way of thinking

Stranger: anything falling outside the social-contract therefore has absolutely no rights at all

Stranger: coma patients, wild people, old tribes etc

Stranger: I dont think that you would actually be fine with them being slaughtered

You: ok, I revert that argument

You: I'm now taking on moral patenthood...

You: but now that I think about bit

Stranger: alright, i have no problem with reverting

You: It's never going to get this far

You: to moral patienthood

You: What other logical routes do you usually go down?

Stranger: well most of the time it gets to the point of were do these rights come from

Stranger: but sometimes you can get them on simpler stuff like:

Stranger: do you think its ok to eat dogs?

You: yes

Stranger: alright

Stranger: what about torturing dogs?

You: um, no

Stranger: why

You: It's cruel.

Stranger: subjective but ok

Stranger: why does that matter

Stranger: if it doesnt has rights or isnt a moral recipient

You: just unnecessary suffering

Stranger: exactly

Stranger: unnecessary suffering is bad

Stranger: those animals have to suffer to become your food

Stranger: and its unnecesarry because you can just eat something else

You: Grass fed beef doesn't suffer really

You: So there is no unnecessary suffering. I never said death is suffering

You: I don't view death is innately equivalent to suffering

Stranger: alright

Stranger: first off your meat probably doesnt come from happy cows jumping around on a plane of grass

You: (again, I don't eat meat but for the sake of argument)

You: that expensive grass fed beef I buy does

Stranger: alright

You: I don't eat fast food

You: or Walmart meat

Stranger: lets say for the sake of argument that it did had a great life

Stranger: most ways of slaughter certainly cause a lot of suffering

Stranger: not only before it, but also the action itself

Stranger: but for sake of argument lets say they are all drugged before being transported away

You: (again, for the sake) I haven't looked into it much, but from what I read, they don't suffer much at slaughter in the US

You: ok, let's make that assumption

Stranger: if you want i can send you some video of regular slaughter houses in the US :p

You: I would need statistics

You: or a USDA report

Stranger: the screams certainly dont mean suffering :p

You: on common slaughtering methods for each animal

You: because that may very well be a cherry picked case

You: So what I'm saying, that death is not innately bad.

Stranger: not really, but ok. For example to normal way to kill baby chickens is by throwing them in a literal blender

Stranger: for pigs its slitting the throat

Stranger: which doesnt kill them immediately

You: gotta have to show me where it says that

You: *gonna

Stranger: Im not going to look up statistics while having this conversation

You: anyway, the assumption

Stranger: sure

You: I know

You: I've looked into it

You: I'm talking about my younger self

Stranger: yeah me too

Stranger: so cows with perfect life and a death without suffering

You: yes

Stranger: people have the right to life as you would agree

Stranger: its the most important instinct

Stranger: the wish the live

Stranger: why do we have the right to discard these animals the wish to live

You: simple, they don't do metacognition

Stranger: so people who cant either also dont have the right to live?

You: there are always special cases. just because someone is in a coma, does not mean they can't get out of it. the same with a child

You: cows will never be able to do metacognition

Stranger: severely mentally ill people

You: that's what I was saying about special cases

You: there are all these fancy surgeries and that field is developing all the time

You: perhaps not in the near future

Stranger: jumping around the bush

Stranger: ill make a clear example

You: but they'll have the potential eventually

Stranger: lets say there is a sub species of humans who are all mentally ill. Would it be ok to genocide them?

You: an alien race?

Stranger: just a branch of the human species

You: I feel like this example is nonsensical

You: we just derived and derived

Stranger: its a though experiment to see how your moral system works

You: I don't have a moral system of my own

Stranger: though experiments are the core of philosophy

You: (again, for the sake)

Stranger: ofc you do, but alright

You: lol

Stranger: if i kill your mother, you wound't say "Im really sad but i geuss its neither bad or good"

Stranger: we all hold some axioms, without them we couldnt operate in this world

You: I just refuse the premise that there would be a sub-human species

You: nonsensical

Stranger: no its not

Stranger: its perfectly possible

Stranger: even if it wouldnt be

Stranger: it doesnt matter

Stranger: its easy to make up a system if you only apply it in the most clear cut cases

You: hold on, I need to get my bearings

Stranger: you clearly have learned about philosophy so you must know that hypotheticals are the core of it

You: yes, but I was saying how I've found (old self) that grass fed beef is perfectly fine to eat

Stranger: yeah and im trying to break your system of who has the right to live and who doenst

Stranger: there is some logic (but most probably feelings) behind it that make you say that animals dont receive it but humans do

Stranger: im trying to poke holes at to find a way inside and burst it open

Stranger: when we are honest to yourself almost all ideas and systems that we have are driven by our most inner emotions and instincts not reason. Why just wrap it with a layer of reason to obfuscate that. But when you apply enough pressure you reveal that underneath is nothing.

Stranger: we just*

You: but we're not equal to animals

You: Hell, we're all different ourselves

You: Animals can't get married

Stranger: i agree we have something special not found in other animals.

Stranger: but can you answer my original question?

You: (old self)

You: the nonsensical nonhuman human sub-species?

Stranger: call it what you want, yes that question

Stranger: can we genocide the retarded human species

You: I just don't get it. They can't possibly be having families if they're their own species

Stranger: cmooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon

You: =)

Stranger: stop walking around the bush

Stranger: 100 thousand years ago we split of into 2 species. We look the same but are mentally different. The other species has the IQ of a severely mentally ill person

Stranger: but they can talk, and do other basic tasks

Stranger: but they lack metacognition

You: ok, for the sake of your time

You: I would have kept beating around the bush

Stranger: will you press the nuke button

Stranger: yeah thats clear

You: I would've said something like

You: convoluted example

You: no connection to the real world

You: so abstract

You: ...something like that

Stranger: and i would say, blablabla. Not an argument

Stranger: in the beginning i gave a real world example

Stranger: and you didnt answer that either so

You: which one?

Stranger: mentally ill people

Stranger: can we kill them

Stranger: torture them whatever

Stranger: the emotional conversations are so much easier, these logical conversations always go into the infinite

Stranger: but fun exercise

You: I actually want to hear the pathos questions though

Stranger: alright, ill just assume that you are stuck in your thoughts.

Stranger: its good to be stuck though

You: but I wasn't

You: I'm just stubborn

Stranger: yeah thats the same

Stranger: stuck in your preconceived notions and instincts

Stranger: like i said, just scared that if you accept a failure in your own system that it will collapse

Stranger: and dont worry

Stranger: Im there too

Stranger: there are many holes in my own thoughts and ideas

Stranger: I guess we just accept that

You: But it's not a hole.

You: (I have a logical argument against this btw)

You: Buying local meats supports the local farmers

You: Being vegan doesn't have any real effect

You: 0.5% of the US pop is vegan

Stranger: that isnt an answer to my question, so im not going to go further in the logics.

Stranger: your just throwing other stuff at me to go away from my point.

Stranger: so ill go the emotional argument, cuz im sick of you avoiding shit :p

You: =D

Stranger: ill just use people's pets to convince them that animals deserve our empathy

Stranger: to convince them that pets have feelings, can suffer, and want to live

Stranger: since they can empathize with there pets you just have to make them see that their pets arent special from other animals

Stranger: you can hit them with the "what about fur" or a "eating dogs in china" :p

Stranger: let them come to the concussion that eating cows and pigs makes no fucking sense

Stranger: if they care about environment, throw that in there

Stranger: mix it up

Stranger: and voila vegan soup

Stranger: "muh grassfed meat" or "eggs and milk tho"

Stranger: just hit them with the "male baby chicks are grind up"

Stranger: "to make milk the mother has to been impregnated which is done over and over until they cant and then they get killed which is less time than there normal life expectancy"

Stranger: dont get me started on the male calves being shipped off to slaughter houses and the girls to get the same faith as their mothers, separated from their mothers

Stranger: thats it :p