Almost EA chat

You both like philosophy.

You: Hello. 23. What city are you from?

Stranger: I live in Australia

You: Ok

Stranger: I'm 22

Stranger: what's up?

You: What do you read?

Stranger: Currently reading metaphysics and the origins of political order

You: by Francis Fukuyama?

Stranger: Yeah

You: Cool beans

Stranger: you read it?

You: Na, just looked it up

Stranger: wbu'

You: A brief pdf about Effective Altruism

Stranger: Nice

Stranger: I've heard about that before

You: Do you know Peter Singer?

Stranger: Yeah

You: Which ideas do you know of his?

Stranger: So I know of his biggest argument

Stranger: I think it was articulated in famine, affluence and morality

You: Awesome

Stranger: basically that we should give as much of our wealth away without sacrificing anything of comparable moral worth? or something

You: yes, verbatim

You: Do you or have you studied philosophy?

Stranger: Not formally, yourself?

You: Not this stuff formally

You: I'm an electrical engineering senior

You: But I enjoy reading philosophy

Stranger: Oh true

Stranger: Where are you from?

You: Wisconsin

Stranger: Nice

Stranger: I'm actually two years into my psychology degree but I intend on switching to politics and philosophy

Stranger: far more interesting, to me at least

Stranger: Plus, doing research in psychology requires $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You: Haha

You: I would've minored in psychology

Stranger: Are you interested in metaethics?

You: Well yes, I'm interested in morality in the first place

You: ~ most

Stranger: Metaethics is fascinating to me

Stranger: I originally tried disputing Singer's argument in my mind

Stranger: but I didn't realise I was disputing underlying metaethical principles

Stranger: instead of his actual argument

You: hugh, that's interesting

Stranger: Well, you are familiar with his pond analogy?

You: Yes

You: I'm very much into Effective Altruism

You: so yes, that's very closely tied

Stranger: I'm not read up on effective altruism, but I do have some friends who are masters students in philosophy and very into that

Stranger: I think I will read Practical Ethics soon

Stranger: I wish I was born in the future where I could USB all these books into my mind

You: I read it, it's a good intro into EA

You: Ya, me too

Stranger: Have you read, reasons and persons?

You: I haven't

Stranger: I thought Parfit was supposed to be somehow tied to altruism

Stranger: or effective altruism

You: He sounds awfully familiar

Stranger: The book is very dense, I've tried it once but I don't think I'm read up enough on ethics to comprehend it sufficiently

Stranger: metaethically speaking, where would you consider yourself?

Stranger: e.g. realist, nonrealist, emotivist, subjectivist etc

Stranger: cognitivist

EA intro

You both like philosophy.

You: Hello. 23. Open to discussing specific topics, but would rather discuss lessening unnecessary suffering

Stranger: How do you propose we do that?

You: Various evidence-backed ways

You: mostly by RCTs

You: givewell.org charities if you want me to be precise

Stranger: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomized_controlled_trial

Stranger: This?

You: Yep

Stranger: Interesting. Are you a STEM student?

You: Electrical engineering

Stranger: Fascinating.

Stranger: Thank you for introducing me to this.

You: It's related to Effective Altruism (see Wikipedia)

You: or

You: effective-altruism.com/ea/9s/effective_altruism_is_a_question_not_an_ideology/

[eventually gave link to group chat ~ hangout]

What do you read?

http://logs.omegle.com/42d001322350b37a

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!

You both like philosophy.

You: Hi

Stranger: Hello.

You: What do you read?

Stranger: Moby Dick currently.

Stranger: I'm such a slow reader though.

Stranger: I get bored so fast.

Stranger: Ugh.

You: What about philosophy?

Stranger: Well, I was thinking about ordering Metametaphysics off of bookdepository.

Stranger: of off*

You: Kant?

Stranger: I've got the Critique here with me.

Stranger: Though, I've only managed like 90-pages tops.

Stranger: One day, maybe, I'll try tackling it again.

You: Oh, you meant by Manley

Stranger: I kinda get the gist of his philosophy though, I guess, thanks to SEP articles.

Stranger: Did Kant ever write something tittled Metametaphysics?

You: I just ask because some have read nothing, and come here to try to discuss it

You: I misread

Stranger: I guess there are people like that.

You: Most common people I meet with the philosophy tag

Stranger: I'm interested in the subject, but I don't think myself qualified to really discuss, review and critique any of those ideas.

Stranger: I just know the tidbit of information here and there.

You: Do you lean anywhere in regards to morality?

You: moral systems

Stranger: Hm...

Stranger: Never really went in-depth into ethics.

Stranger: Metaethics seems much more interesting.

Stranger: So, I dunno really.

Stranger: I'd currently describe myself as a nihilist.

You: I think it's the most important branch of philosophy

Stranger: I've started to recognize its importance.

Stranger: I wish the libraries here had some more stuff on analytic philosophy in general.

You: Classically, Kantism, Utilitarianism, Virtue theory. Contemporary discourse ethics, preference utilitarianism, After Virtue

Stranger: Definitely not into deontology, that's for sure.

Stranger: I guess utilitarianism and virtue theory are theories I might actually consider implementing.

Stranger: are the theories*

You: I want to start getting into Habermas's discourse ethics (contemporary deontology) because I've focused too much on preference utilitarianism

You: But eh, a bias is inevitable either way I guess

You: So why do you like consequentialism or what about it do you like?

Stranger: It's the ethics theory I'm most familiar with (which is almost zilch), so yeah...

Stranger: I really wanna read up some stuff on metaethics before I really start going into ethics.

Stranger: Gotta figure out my position on the metaethical issues before I can move on to figuring out what the good life for me is.

You: Maybe it's not all about you ;)

You: ~ bit of altruism sprinkled in there

Stranger: But like, even when you do good to others, you kinda are doing that good to make yourself better.

Stranger: At least that's how I see it.

Stranger: Like, I don't think that pure altruism exists.

You: https://www.pdx.edu/sysc/sites/www.pdx.edu.sysc/files/levels_altruism_BiolTheory_web.pdf

You: pic on the second page will give you the gist

You: on the Levels of Altruism

Stranger: Yup, that's it.

Stranger: Self-interest is the foundation.

You: I think of it as similar to racism (degrees of racism)

Stranger: Racism?

You: Self-interest is a zero point

You: It's not referring to impure altruism (that you mentioned)

You: But I'm sure you read "Level 1 is not actually an instance of altruism" before the foundation part

Stranger: This looks like an interesting paper, I'll be sure to print it out and read it.

Stranger: If you've got some more short papers like these, please do link them.

You: Hm, let me think

You: ...and search my link lists...

Stranger: Take your time.

You: Found one, looking for others. In the mean time, here:

You: http://www.philosophyexperiments.com/singer/

You: https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/users/4506/adam-uraynar?tab=favorites

Stranger: Your account or?

You: yes

You: long version:

You: https://philosophy.columbian.gwu.edu/sites/philosophy.columbian.gwu.edu/files/image/DeGraziaMoral.pdf

You: short:

You: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-singer-turkey-suffering-thanksgiving-20161122-story.html

You: and I really enjoy the Department Store section of SEP's Common Knowledge

You: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/common-knowledge/#1.5

Stranger: SEP is just a blessing.

Stranger: IEP is really good also.

You: Some articles I feel are a bit long winded, but it is a great resource (SEP)

Stranger: True, but they're thorough, and I really respect that.

Stranger: Well, it's 00:21 over here.

Stranger: Time for bed.

Stranger: Thanks for the links.

Stranger: Take care, and all the best.

You: adios

You have disconnected.

vegetarianism arguement standstill - could be wrong

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!

You both like Vegan, and Vegetarian.

Stranger: Hello

You: Hi

Stranger: How are you?

You: Well

You: Why are you here?

Stranger: I’m looking for someone to talk about Veganism with.

You: Awesome

Stranger: And you?

You: Discuss morality, esp related to veg/*anism

You: I'm just a vegetarian though

Stranger: Oh okay! So why just vegetarian and not vegan?

You: There's a high likelihood I'll go vegan

You: Just haven't found enough meal prep plans with roughly equivalent nutrients and such

Stranger: Okay! What are your reasons for wanting to go vegan?

You: Singer's arguments

You: Have you heard of Peter Singer?

You: So plainly, to lessen animal suffering

Stranger: I know Who he is yes. Not super knowledgeable of his work though. I do know generals though.

You: Good enough for me

You: But ya, like I said, the suffering part

You: I used to be because of the other side of the coin: the slaughtering part

Stranger: So you believe things like eggs and milk promote suffering not just slaughter?

You: Yep, animal products. Still eat two eggs just about every morning. Like I said, haven't found a weekly meal prep plan

You: So until that time, it's not morally equivalent for me to buy the $5 eggs vs the $1.50 reg eggs

Stranger: I gotcha. So what part of like the milking of cattle do you believe promotes suffering?

You: I know more about chickens than cattle....Even though that's kind of ironic me being in Wisconsin...

You: Do you know what fodder is?

Stranger: I gotcha. Well what part of the chicken laying industry then?

You: Do you know how debeaking is done?

You: (The less easy question would be why.)

Stranger: Yes and yes. Fodder is a dried feed. And Debra king is done my clipping the tip of the beak off of chicks

You: With a hot blade

You: Hard to tell if you didn't just Google ;)

You: Anyway, in conversation I use those questions as a sort of litmus test

Stranger: Yes that’s correct. It’s done with a hot blade so that it clots the vessels otherwise it would bleed.

You: Yep. Doesn't really work well over the internet I guess

Stranger: I didn’t google but I get your skepticism

You: So do you cook most days?

Stranger: I’ve actually been to dairy’s and chicken houses

Stranger: No. Usually meal prep for the week.

Stranger: I don’t have time to cook throughout the week.

You: I've been to 5-15 dairy farms (living in Wisconsin)

You: So how do you do it?

Stranger: Oh nice! Large scale small scale?

Stranger: I get a protein and one carbs along with fruits and vegetables.

You: For the 5 days

Stranger: No what size farms?

You: I don't know. Years ago. One time, slept on a farm. Tons of cats everywhere. The other times were "breakfast on the farm" ~ an event I went with my father

You: In college now

Stranger: Ohh okay!!

Stranger: I’m not vegan. Just putting that out there Incase you were confused

You: So do you just know from experience how to prep meals or go from a list?

You: Wa? So you prep meals for being vegetarian??

You: I guess, marginally healthier

Stranger: No. I eat meat. I’m currently an Animal Science major and have nothing against eating meat and or animal products. Just like to see differing views

You: What do you do for meal prep

You: I'm so confused

Stranger: I’m not vegetarian or vegan. I just wanted to talk to some to see why y’all are. I like seeing different views. I meal prep but for regular eating with no dietary restrictions

You: ok

You: side note, I really don't think of it as restricting

You: makes things a lot simpler

You: esp when eating out

Stranger: By restricting your choices of what you eat no?

You: I suppose I don't eat food for my spectacular taste

You: It is a restriction, sure

Stranger: I’m not saying your wrong or it’s bad.

You: I just don't see it as a restriction really

Stranger: Okay!

You: More of a moral boycott

Stranger: Understandable. Because you believe that animals are mistreated and we shouldn’t use them as a food source?

You: Oh, you think it's a belief

Stranger: I’m asking if that’s what you’re stance is yes.

You: https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/50201500/beak%20trimming%20fact%20sheet.pdf

Stranger: Your

You: It's not a belief. It's an informed opinion.

Stranger: Okay but that is what you’re saying?

You: Belief is based on faith. An informed opinion is based on fact and logic.

You: I can give you more factual evidence that chickens and cattle suffer (in the US)

Stranger: Okay then is that your informed opinion?

You: Industry standards for the US

You: opposed to what?

You: anecdotal inductive sight seeing?

Stranger: Yes I’m well aware of the industry standards in the US.

You: I ask farmers and relevant workers too. For example, on Quora: https://www.quora.com/As-a-chicken-farmer-or-producer-do-you-think-catching-transport-or-slaughter-are-brutal-processes

You: Most don't think that's formal evidence

You: So I usually don't go too much down that path

You: Eh

You: So you think chickens are not suffering?

Stranger: Sorry was reading the two links you sent.

You: Have more, just tedious to copy and paste each one

You: I use Trello

Stranger: I have seen the USDA page. And I like the Quora question but don’t necessarily see how you asked farmers. The only person who validated their opinions was someone who lived by people with chickens.

You: I can paste the other links...

You: That was just an example of one question. I didn't go to factory farms and survey farmers, no

Stranger: Oh I’m sure you have more! I’m good just would you not agree that those three responses have no validation?

Stranger: Why not survey the industry?

You: Go for it.

You: "those three responses have no validation?"

You: what?

Stranger: Why are they a credible source?

You: People on Quora? They're not. Never claimed they were. I could pose as a farmer and answer questions on Quora. You could. Anyone could.

You: But why do you think chickens, on the broad scale, are not suffering?

Stranger: Okay. Then why use it in an argument?

You: It was a supplement

You: My main argument is the suffering that is the reality. And that's exactly why I don't waste time posting all those Quora questions I asked related to this

Stranger: I believe that the practices in place are there to make the process as humane as possible without limiting the flood supply produced to feed us. And I agree it sounds a supplement but a supplement with no substance doesn’t help.

You: What was the second link you read??

You: https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/50201500/beak%20trimming%20fact%20sheet.pdf

You: Preventing chickens from performing those
behaviors due to living environments results in stress,
which leads to the expression of harmful behaviors.

You: Shit, that was in the abstract

You: alone

Stranger: So you’re saying it would be better if we didn’t trim beaks?

You: That is one example of how chickens suffer. I'm astonished you don't know any other besides what I've mentioned so far.

Stranger: Would you answer the question?

You: Would you?

You: I asked you three times now

You: ffs

Stranger: Haven’t asked one.

You: why do you think chickens, on the broad scale, are not suffering?

You: Not every chicken is debeaked.

You: I've asked this question several times.

You: https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file?accession=wright1433172495&disposition=inline#page=22

Stranger: Because I believe that they are handled in humane ways. Do they experience some discomfort yes. Do I think they are suffering no.

You: No, it's about efficiency

You: Efficiency first

You: And it obviously makes sense in economic terms

You: Not in moral terms though

You: Wow. I was wrong to assumed you had an informed opinion

Stranger: I agree that economically it makes sense. But what happens to growth rate when an animal is stressed?

Stranger: And what happens to growth rate when an animal becomes stressed?

You: I'll lay it out. Answering https://www.quora.com/How-can-you-argue-against-an-animal-rights-activist

Stranger: Never mentioned anything like would you rather a child starve.

Stranger: So let’s go with. What happens to growth rate when an animal is stressed/suffering as you say they are.

You: First of all you don't think the majority of chickens in the US suffer, and I do. I'm working on that...

Stranger: Okay I agree that we have differing opinions on that. Would you just answer this question though?

You: Maybe when I look back

Stranger: So totally unrelated topic but it’s for me info log. What is your major? I always ask the degree of schooling and major if they are in college.

Stranger: My not me.

You: Senior electrical engineering

You: psychology minor

Stranger: Thanks!

Stranger: Okay. So the growth rate and production rate decreases dramatically when an animal becomes stressed/suffering. Therefore their productivity would decrease costing the industry money. Why would they do things that decrease profits? They wouldn’t. Therefore these processes must not drop productivity meaning there is no long term stress to the animals.

You: Are you using your intuition? Do you have a link of something related to biology or a reliable quote?

Stranger: no not intuition knowledge. This is my major after all. But if you want professor quotes and or studies I can find them. Don’t have handy now though. Have an email I can email you papers to?

You: Are you active on some website, such as Quora?

You: I'd like to not exchange emails

Stranger: Nope don’t have time for that. Vet school takes up most of my time.

Stranger: Thanks

Stranger has disconnected.