Wednesday, March 7, 2018

vegetarianism arguement standstill - could be wrong


You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You both like Vegan, and Vegetarian.
Stranger: Hello
You: Hi
Stranger: How are you?
You: Well
You: Why are you here?
Stranger: I’m looking for someone to talk about Veganism with.
You: Awesome
Stranger: And you?
You: Discuss morality, esp related to veg/*anism
You: I'm just a vegetarian though
Stranger: Oh okay! So why just vegetarian and not vegan?
You: There's a high likelihood I'll go vegan
You: Just haven't found enough meal prep plans with roughly equivalent nutrients and such
Stranger: Okay! What are your reasons for wanting to go vegan?
You: Singer's arguments
You: Have you heard of Peter Singer?
You: So plainly, to lessen animal suffering
Stranger: I know Who he is yes. Not super knowledgeable of his work though. I do know generals though.
You: Good enough for me
You: But ya, like I said, the suffering part
You: I used to be because of the other side of the coin: the slaughtering part
Stranger: So you believe things like eggs and milk promote suffering not just slaughter?
You: Yep, animal products. Still eat two eggs just about every morning. Like I said, haven't found a weekly meal prep plan
You: So until that time, it's not morally equivalent for me to buy the $5 eggs vs the $1.50 reg eggs
Stranger: I gotcha. So what part of like the milking of cattle do you believe promotes suffering?
You: I know more about chickens than cattle....Even though that's kind of ironic me being in Wisconsin...
You: Do you know what fodder is?
Stranger: I gotcha. Well what part of the chicken laying industry then?
You: Do you know how debeaking is done?
You: (The less easy question would be why.)
Stranger: Yes and yes. Fodder is a dried feed. And Debra king is done my clipping the tip of the beak off of chicks
You: With a hot blade
You: Hard to tell if you didn't just Google ;)
You: Anyway, in conversation I use those questions as a sort of litmus test
Stranger: Yes that’s correct. It’s done with a hot blade so that it clots the vessels otherwise it would bleed.
You: Yep. Doesn't really work well over the internet I guess
Stranger: I didn’t google but I get your skepticism
You: So do you cook most days?
Stranger: I’ve actually been to dairy’s and chicken houses
Stranger: No. Usually meal prep for the week.
Stranger: I don’t have time to cook throughout the week.
You: I've been to 5-15 dairy farms (living in Wisconsin)
You: So how do you do it?
Stranger: Oh nice! Large scale small scale?
Stranger: I get a protein and one carbs along with fruits and vegetables.
You: For the 5 days
Stranger: No what size farms?
You: I don't know. Years ago. One time, slept on a farm. Tons of cats everywhere. The other times were "breakfast on the farm" ~ an event I went with my father
You: In college now
Stranger: Ohh okay!!
Stranger: I’m not vegan. Just putting that out there Incase you were confused
You: So do you just know from experience how to prep meals or go from a list?
You: Wa? So you prep meals for being vegetarian??
You: I guess, marginally healthier
Stranger: No. I eat meat. I’m currently an Animal Science major and have nothing against eating meat and or animal products. Just like to see differing views
You: What do you do for meal prep
You: I'm so confused
Stranger: I’m not vegetarian or vegan. I just wanted to talk to some to see why y’all are. I like seeing different views. I meal prep but for regular eating with no dietary restrictions
You: ok
You: side note, I really don't think of it as restricting
You: makes things a lot simpler
You: esp when eating out
Stranger: By restricting your choices of what you eat no?
You: I suppose I don't eat food for my spectacular taste
You: It is a restriction, sure
Stranger: I’m not saying your wrong or it’s bad.
You: I just don't see it as a restriction really
Stranger: Okay!
You: More of a moral boycott
Stranger: Understandable. Because you believe that animals are mistreated and we shouldn’t use them as a food source?
You: Oh, you think it's a belief
Stranger: I’m asking if that’s what you’re stance is yes.
You: https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/50201500/beak%20trimming%20fact%20sheet.pdf
Stranger: Your
You: It's not a belief. It's an informed opinion.
Stranger: Okay but that is what you’re saying?
You: Belief is based on faith. An informed opinion is based on fact and logic.
You: I can give you more factual evidence that chickens and cattle suffer (in the US)
Stranger: Okay then is that your informed opinion?
You: Industry standards for the US
You: opposed to what?
You: anecdotal inductive sight seeing?
Stranger: Yes I’m well aware of the industry standards in the US.
You: I ask farmers and relevant workers too. For example, on Quora: https://www.quora.com/As-a-chicken-farmer-or-producer-do-you-think-catching-transport-or-slaughter-are-brutal-processes
You: Most don't think that's formal evidence
You: So I usually don't go too much down that path
You: Eh
You: So you think chickens are not suffering?
Stranger: Sorry was reading the two links you sent.
You: Have more, just tedious to copy and paste each one
You: I use Trello
Stranger: I have seen the USDA page. And I like the Quora question but don’t necessarily see how you asked farmers. The only person who validated their opinions was someone who lived by people with chickens.
You: I can paste the other links...
You: That was just an example of one question. I didn't go to factory farms and survey farmers, no
Stranger: Oh I’m sure you have more! I’m good just would you not agree that those three responses have no validation?
Stranger: Why not survey the industry?
You: Go for it.
You: "those three responses have no validation?"
You: what?
Stranger: Why are they a credible source?
You: People on Quora? They're not. Never claimed they were. I could pose as a farmer and answer questions on Quora. You could. Anyone could.
You: But why do you think chickens, on the broad scale, are not suffering?
Stranger: Okay. Then why use it in an argument?
You: It was a supplement
You: My main argument is the suffering that is the reality. And that's exactly why I don't waste time posting all those Quora questions I asked related to this
Stranger: I believe that the practices in place are there to make the process as humane as possible without limiting the flood supply produced to feed us. And I agree it sounds a supplement but a supplement with no substance doesn’t help.
You: What was the second link you read??
You: https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/50201500/beak%20trimming%20fact%20sheet.pdf
You: Preventing chickens from performing those
behaviors due to living environments results in stress,
which leads to the expression of harmful behaviors.
You: Shit, that was in the abstract
You: alone
Stranger: So you’re saying it would be better if we didn’t trim beaks?
You: That is one example of how chickens suffer. I'm astonished you don't know any other besides what I've mentioned so far.
Stranger: Would you answer the question?
You: Would you?
You: I asked you three times now
You: ffs
Stranger: Haven’t asked one.
You: why do you think chickens, on the broad scale, are not suffering?
You: Not every chicken is debeaked.
You: I've asked this question several times.
You: https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file?accession=wright1433172495&disposition=inline#page=22
Stranger: Because I believe that they are handled in humane ways. Do they experience some discomfort yes. Do I think they are suffering no.
You: No, it's about efficiency
You: Efficiency first
You: And it obviously makes sense in economic terms
You: Not in moral terms though
You: Wow. I was wrong to assumed you had an informed opinion
Stranger: I agree that economically it makes sense. But what happens to growth rate when an animal is stressed?
Stranger: And what happens to growth rate when an animal becomes stressed?
You: I'll lay it out. Answering https://www.quora.com/How-can-you-argue-against-an-animal-rights-activist
Stranger: Never mentioned anything like would you rather a child starve.
Stranger: So let’s go with. What happens to growth rate when an animal is stressed/suffering as you say they are.
You: First of all you don't think the majority of chickens in the US suffer, and I do. I'm working on that...
Stranger: Okay I agree that we have differing opinions on that. Would you just answer this question though?
You: Maybe when I look back
Stranger: So totally unrelated topic but it’s for me info log. What is your major? I always ask the degree of schooling and major if they are in college.
Stranger: My not me.
You: Senior electrical engineering
You: psychology minor
Stranger: Thanks!
Stranger: Okay. So the growth rate and production rate decreases dramatically when an animal becomes stressed/suffering. Therefore their productivity would decrease costing the industry money. Why would they do things that decrease profits? They wouldn’t. Therefore these processes must not drop productivity meaning there is no long term stress to the animals.
You: Are you using your intuition? Do you have a link of something related to biology or a reliable quote?
Stranger: no not intuition knowledge. This is my major after all. But if you want professor quotes and or studies I can find them. Don’t have handy now though. Have an email I can email you papers to?
You: Are you active on some website, such as Quora?
You: I'd like to not exchange emails
Stranger: Nope don’t have time for that. Vet school takes up most of my time.

Stranger: Thanks
Stranger has disconnected.

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